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Kirsten

Hva er best, avl med søsken eller far/datter?

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Til våren har jeg tenkt å ha 2 stammer Australorps 1.3 +1.3. Alt er ubeslektet unntatt ei høne som er datter av den ene hanen og søster til den andre. Hvor er det best å plassere henne? Hos faren eller hos broren?

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Jeg mener det er genetisk og statitisk sett bedre og parre henne med broren. Unansett uheldig men der som du absolutt skal parre henne, hadde jeg gått for broren.

Begrunnelsen min er at hun er 50% genetisk identisk med sin far.

Broren er også 50% genetisk identisk med sin far, men de to er ikke tvillinger (meget sjeldent hos høner) altså er hans andel av farens gener ulik hennes. Dermed blir genetikken mer "utvannet" når du parrer broren enn om du parrer med faren.

Spørsmålet blir enda mer komplisert dersom broren og søsteren har samme hønemor i tillegg?

Jeg er veldig spent på andre meninger....

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Hmm jeg vet ikke , men da jeg kjøpte Sussex flokken min sa oppdretter at de var søsken og at det gikk fint ann å få kyllinger av disse.

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Jeg synes du må vurdere hva du vil med aveln, har pappan spesiellt ønsklige gener som du vil forsterke så bruker du han. Hvis dyren er middelmåtige prøver du heller å bytte ut unghanen med en annen hane som kan forbedre dem. Har sendt deg en pm ang bytting.

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Jeg kjøpte "gamlehanen" på Landsutstillingen i fjor, og han fikk 3 damer å regjere over. Dessverre døde den ene i løpet av vinteren, så jeg hadde bare en trio som utgangspunkt for årets avl. Hvilken høne som er mor til de to aktuelle dyrene, er umulig å si  :grin: De andre 3 hønene som jeg satser på til neste år, kommer fra egg fra andre steder, så der er jeg ikke i tvil om at jeg skal sette "unghanen". Han fikk 94 poeng på Østfoldutstillingen, og det samme fikk søsteren hans  :grin:

Jeg hadde også med ei av de andre 3 unghønene, og hun fikk 92 poeng. Hun er litt mindre enn "problemhøna" selv om de er klekket samtidig. Jeg har god tro på denne høna, og det har ikke vært noen form for innavl tidligere, så da skal det jo ikke være så farlig.... :rolleyes: selv om det er uheldig....  :undecided: Spørsmålet er bare hvor slektskapet gjør "minst skade" om en kan si det sånn...  :undecided:

Jeg vil jo gjerne at det skal bli best mulig resultat av avlen, og jeg er litt fersk i dette gamet  :wink: men synes selv jeg har et godt utgangspunkt for neste års avl (om alle lever gjennom denne h.... kalde vinteren da  :rolleyes:)

Jeg er bare helt sikker på at jeg ikke skal sette unghanen på de gamle hønene, en av dem er jo mor hans.... derfor har jeg bestemt meg for å lage 2 stammer.

Krikakilen: jeg skjønner hva du mener med "utvannet" genetikk.... og Fuglemakeren!: jeg vet altfor lite om ønskelige og lite ønskelige gener, og vet i grunnen ikke helt hva jeg skal avle på annet enn at dyrene har vært bedømt og fått rimelig bra poeng.... :wink:

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KIRSTEN: Leser du Engelsk? Jeg har en veldig god artikkel.

FURTHER BREEDING OPTIONS

Dr Charles R H Everett With Craig Russell

In our most recent Breeder’s Directory, Christine Willard wrote an article entitled "Small Flock Breeding." This article summarized two previous articles on the subject, one by Craig Russell, the other by Dick Demasky; plus, it added information on breeding out-and-out. For those of us involved in preservation the rolling-mating system as advocated by Russell and the clan-mating system as advocated by Demansky are basic. However, there are still other systems that can be utilized by the preservationist in strategic ways.

My personal research in breeding has led me to begin gathering and collecting articles and books by cockfighters (cockers) of long ago; these men of the past preserved several different breeds of chickens for hundreds possibly even thousands of years. During that time they maintained type and vigor to an unparallel degree. It is my belief that their methods of breeding should be examined in detail to be utilized by the modern preservationist. Let me add, however, that this article is not an endorsement or defense of cockfighting; neither will I belie them in any manner. Instead, it is a heartfelt acknowledgement to men who perfected the art of breeding chickens. Further, I believe the modern preservationist can learn much more from the breeding techniques of cockers than he/she can from textbooks on commercial poultry breeding. (Note* It should go without saying that at all times you must select for vigor and type regardless of the breeding system utilized. Cocker Tan Bark states, "Good breeding is only a matter of intelligent selection of brood fowl…."

What the ole time cockers strove for was prepotency. They desired to be able to predict with reasonable accuracy the outcome of any particular mating. For this reason, no cocker worth his salt would have consistently used the out-and-out system. Granted, at times they did cross, but very carefully. Their records consistently indicate that when they did cross they did so using the same strain of fowl they were hoping to improve. Of course, they were looking for gameness, but using their methods a breeder can breed for type, fertility, egg production, etc.

The system I would introduce was utilized by William Morgan, of Morgan Whitehackle fame, and some of the English cockers. It is a form of breeding known as "3 times in and once out." This system was used to produce, in cockers’ terms, a "pure strain." The following chart will explain how the system works.

First Generation Hen Cock

½ hen ½ cock

Second Generation

Hen to son

Cock to daughter ¾ hen ¾ cock

Third Generation

Hen to grandson

Cock to granddaughter 7/8 hen 7/8 cock

Fourth Generation

Hen to ggrandson

Cock to ggranddaughter 15/16 hen 15/16 cock

Now in the 5th generation you breed the 15/16 hen to the 15/16 cock. Then, choosing the best hen(s) and cock(s) you begin again. C. A. Finsterbusch recommends the same breeding strategy in his famous book Cockfighting All Over the Word page 152—153. If they chose to continue line breeding these fowl were what they termed "seed stock." Seed stock was never pitted. Instead, they were crossed to a different strain to produce their "battle cocks." Battle cocks were never used in breeding pens if this system were employed. Or, at this point you choose the three to five best hens and begin the clan mating system.

Alva Campbell who created the "Campbell Blue Boones" during the early years of the twentieth century line bred his outstanding pullets to one cock, "Daniel Boone," for eleven straight years. D. H. Pierce claimed his "Wisconsin Red Shufflers" were line bred for 35 years with no loss of vigor or gameness.

How did these men accomplish this when so many modern textbooks on poultry genetics maintain this is impossible to do? I have discovered several key answers. First, "an inbreeder must breed only from his most vigorous… specimens." Second, they culled ruthlessly. Third, in any form of line breeding the youthfulness of the stock used cannot be overstated. Fourth, they often carried on the same mating (One cock to one hen) for four or five years. Thus, in twenty years it was possible to have only produced four or five distinct generations. When cockers happened upon a cock and hen that produced winners in the pit, then they mated these two year after year. Fifth, they kept accurate records of every mating and often practiced single matings. Sixth, they only attempted close inbreeding on free range giving the birds every advantage of producing constitutional soundness and vitality. These six keys allowed the cockers to be greatly successful at the art of breeding game fowl centuries before the advent of modern genetics.

Many cockers practiced variations of the rolling-matings and clan-matings systems. When practicing the rolling-matings they would often include side matings of line breeding. When using the clan system the large breeders often kept five to seven clans. (They called them "yards.") With the clan matings they most often used the matriarchal system as advocated by Dick Demansky. At times they would create "new" clans or yards of full sisters when a particular hen within the clan produced exceptional sons. Thus, this one hen became prepotent in the new yard through her daughters.

Like those of traditional farmers, for whom poultry was an important part of the subsistence, the methods of cockers have often been disparaged by modern experts. But for serious preservationists and small flock owners in general their tried and true methods are among the surest ways to turn simple reproduction into serious breeding and systematic flock improvement.

One of the truly wonderful things about raising chickens is that you the breeder can choose your own system of breeding to create your "own strain." Yes, you can even experiment! Regardless of how you personally feel about the sport of cockfighting, these men of a by gone era have much to teach us. So, why not learn from the original preservationist: cockers?

Read more: http://happyhenhouse.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=babies&action=display&thread=11401#ixzz11NDHCFbn

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Takk Thorleif! Nyttig artikkel  :grin: Tror nok det blir at jeg setter unghøna i den stammen der gamlehanen (far) skal råde grunnen til våren.

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Ja, jeg har begynt aa avle 3 forskjellige linjer etter disse ideene. Det er nemlig umulig aa finne noen haner som ikke er beslektet her i UK, men jeg er saa heldig at jeg fikk en hane som er 1/2 tysk, saa da spratt fruktbarheten opp!

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